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[00:00:00] Melissa Fleming

My guest this week survived a civil war and became a top lawyer, but then an encounter with the victims of the conflict in Sierra Leone gave him a new purpose. 

 

[00:00:12] Ozonnia Ojielo

She started crying. All the other girls started crying. I started crying as well. And there I was, very successful. I am making a lot of money. But I said to myself this is much more valuable. Trying to change people's lives or at least be there as a voice for them. 

 

[00:00:37] Melissa Fleming

Ozonnia Ojielo is the United Nations Resident and Humanitarian Coordinator in Ethiopia. From the United Nations, I'm Melissa Fleming. This is Awake at Night. Welcome, Ozonnia. 

 

[00:00:59] Ozonnia Ojielo

Thank you. Thank you, Melissa. Real pleasure. 

 

[00:01:01] Melissa Fleming

What brings you to New York? 

 

[00:01:03] Ozonnia Ojielo

I'm actually on holidays. New York has been home for the last decade plus because my wife and kids are here. So, when it's time for holidays, either we're spending it here in the US or perhaps sometimes we go home to Nigeria. 

 

[00:01:19] Melissa Fleming

Yeah, because you did spend time at UNDP, which is headquartered here. And we're going to get into that. You also spent the last quarter of a century working on development, peacebuilding, and conflict prevention from Sierra Leone to Rwanda, from Kenya to Kyrgyzstan. So, we are going to into all of that, but I first want to ask you about your early experience in your home country of Nigeria. You lived through the Nigerian Civil War when you were a child in the 1960s. Can you just explain why Nigeria was at civil war and then where was your home and how you and your family were affected. 

 

[00:02:02] Ozonnia Ojielo

Yeah, thanks. It was the failure of politics in Nigeria in the 1960s. [The] immediate trigger was a contested election. One in '65, and then a military coup in '66. But the failure politics, of course, led to multiple narratives that were ethnically focused and also issues around perception. Perceptions of dominance of political offices by one ethnic group and the other. People from my part of the country, the southeast, Igbos, were targeted and killed in many parts of Nigeria. So, most people then fled home to the southeast of Nigeria. 

The military leaders couldn't find a solution to the issues and then civil war broke out, which was quite unfortunate. And then for my family, my father was a police officer. He was an assistant to the Inspector General of Police of the new breakaway republic called Biafra. So, we followed him wherever the political leadership was at that particular time. And so, war is something that no child should experience. Because I experienced it as a child. I saw cousins killed up close. And there was no food. And part of the politics of war at that time was use of starvation as an instrument of war. So, this particular day, my mom told me and my younger brother to go look for lizards. 

 

[00:03:29] Melissa Fleming

Lizards? 

 

[00:03:31] Ozonnia Ojielo

Yes. Because the word out on the streets then was that lizards were nutritious. And because there was no food in the enclave where we were, Biafra had been blockaded [so] that if children were fed lizards, they could survive. You know, just proteinous. And images of the war in that time in international media is very emaciated children, acutely malnourished. So, my brother and I spent several hours running after lizards in our... You know, we were so frail. We couldn't catch any. 

 

[00:04:03] Melissa Fleming

How do you catch a lizard? 

 

[00:04:05] Ozonnia Ojielo

Exactly. So, we walked back home crying. And said to our mom, 'We're sorry. We couldn't catch any lizards.' And she said, 'Don't worry, my sons. God will provide.' So that image, that memory stays with me since then that it was that bad that there was no food. And we were running after a lizard to see if we could catch any for the family meal. And we couldn't catch any, and we thought that would be the end. But here we are and here I am today. 

 

[00:04:33] Melissa Fleming

How did you survive that? 

 

[00:04:37] Ozonnia Ojielo

So, well, essentially, it's the price parents pay just for their children. Many times, they would go without food just to be sure that we had food ourselves. And then fortunately, the government then started allowing relief agencies to come in. So Catholic relief carried us, had a very prominent presence in the then Biafra. So, I still remember all of us going to the distribution points, going to collect food. 

 

[00:05:04] Melissa Fleming

What kind of food would you be collecting? 

 

[00:05:06] Ozonnia Ojielo

So usually it's cereals. Mostly cereals and oil and things like that. Just enough to get by. That mental image of surviving the war has stayed with me all of my life and I think in some respect perhaps has shaped who I've become. Because when I have an opportunity to talk to young people, I tell them my story. 

And I say, 'If this gentleman who almost was looking for lizards and couldn't find any, if he's standing before you as head of the United Nations Country Team in your country, imagine what you could become. Your country hasn't gone through war. You have opportunity as young people. You should strive to be better than, you know, what your parents have become.' I think for me it's a powerful story that I tell young people about the possibilities that they have in their lives to be better than their parents may have been. 

 

[00:06:03] Melissa Fleming

How long were you in that situation and how old were you? 

 

[00:06:07] Ozonnia Ojielo

Well, I was... This was 1967. I was four years old and then the war ended in 1970. So, in 1970, the war ended. We all found our way back home to our respective communities and then tried to rebuild our lives. But in my home village, my father had built a house. It was ransacked completely. So basically, everybody decided to pick up the pieces of their lives. 

We were fortunate that my father was recalled back into the police service. Because many of those who served in the Biafra military lost their jobs. But I think because perhaps my father was just a police assistant and [inaudible] to the Inspector General of Biafra, he was recalled to the police service. So that helped us to pick up the pieces of our lives and then to start schooling in 1970 at the end of the war. 

 

 

[00:06:57] Melissa Fleming

I believe your parents... And I think there were six of you, six children? 

 

[00:07:02] Ozonnia Ojielo

Yeah, seven of us. 

 

[00:07:03] Melissa Fleming

Seven of you. Wow! They really emphasized you all getting an education. Why was that? 

 

[00:07:11] Ozonnia Ojielo

Good question. I think for my father... I remember even when I was in high school, my father was still trying to improve himself in education. So, in his time, after primary school, he became a pupil teacher and then taught for a couple of years then joined the police service. And he was so good that they made him an instructor in the police training college. And an instructor in what they call the advanced wing, which is where you train senior officials of the police. But he didn't go far in rank because of the limitation in education. 

And he used to... This quote he used cite to me and my siblings. We've never forgotten it. I don't know where he got it from, but it stayed with us ever since. He would say that: 'The heights by which great men reached and kept were not attained by sudden flight. But they, while their companions slept, kept on toiling all night.' So, for him, it was all about education. And you know, given the meagre salary of a police officer, and my mother was a schoolteacher, how they managed to see all of us through college still beats me, but they succeeded. And so, they're very proud parents today in terms of what their children have become. So, we owe everything to both of them. 

 

[00:08:27] Melissa Fleming

Well, all seven of you, they put through college. Wow! And you mentioned that your childhood experience kind of inspired you to go on to international affairs. But I believe you also did not just a bachelor¡¯s degree, not just master's degree, you did a Ph.D. 

 

[00:08:50] Ozonnia Ojielo

Yes. So, I studied quite a number of disciplines. First, I went and read history, had a master's degree in history. And then switched to study law. Studied law and practiced law for many years. And then I joined the UN system. And then at that point... At a certain point I found over a certain year or two that everybody who became UN Resident Coordinator, [in] their resume they had an MBA. So, I thought, 'Well, if you really want to become a Resident Coordinator, you better go study finance.' So, I went and studied and got an MBA as well in strategic and project management. But then ultimately because of the work that I was doing, working with communities, trying to build peace, creating spaces for mediation and amicable resolution of conflicts, I thought I needed to cement that by also being a scholar in the subject. So, I went and did a PhD in peace and conflict studies. 

 

[00:09:46] Melissa Fleming

What made you want to join the UN? 

 

[00:09:49] Ozonnia Ojielo

I actually didn't want to join the UN. I had no such plans at all. 

 

[00:09:54] Melissa Fleming

What were your plans? 

 

[00:09:55] Ozonnia Ojielo

I was a practicing lawyer in Nigeria. I was very successful. I made a lot of money as a lawyer. People thought I was a very cocky lawyer. And then, I had this opportunity. As a lawyer, you're looking for consulting opportunities. So, I was contacted by the UN. That time, I had... I was one of the pioneers of alternative dispute resolution in Nigeria, ADR, you know. Mediation, resolving conflicts without going to court. So, I quickly set up an ADR practice in my law firm. 

And so, I was contacted by the High Commissioner for Human Rights, the office in Geneva, if I could go to Malawi and help them conduct trainings in ADR. So, I thought, why not? So I went to Malawi, spent two years working with the judiciary, the Human Rights Commission. Trained all the judges from magistrate court to supreme court. I helped them write rules for integration of alternative dispute resolution into their justice system. Then I did the same also in Namibia. They were quite satisfied with that. 

And then the Truth [and Reconciliation] Commission of Sierra Leone came along and they said, 'Would you like to go help set up the secretariat of the commission?' So, the idea was actually a three-month consultancy in 2002. So I went to Sierra Leone, wrote up the policies, wrote up of the procedures of the commission. Went home to Nigeria. At the end of the training on a Friday, I announced to the commissioners that my contract was up. I thanked them for the opportunity to work with them and said, 'I leave tomorrow to go back home to Nigeria.' They were like, 'You must be joking.' I said, 'No, no, no. It's true, I'm leaving.' 'Well, you wrote our procedures. You trained us. Who is going to help us run the commission?' I said, 'No, I have a law practice. I have lawyers in my firm. I have businesses. My clients are very unhappy with me.' They said, 'No. You have to stay.' I'm like, 'I'm sorry. I am leaving.' 

So, they quickly reached out to the office of the president, and they reached out OHCHR [Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights] in Geneva and OHCHR said, 'No. You can't leave. You have stay there and support the Commission.' So, I thought, 'Okay, maybe six months, one year.' So, I stayed. Then we started traveling the country, meeting victims from the civil war in Sierra Leone. You know, the tragedy of the civil war in the Sierra Leone was that this term called "short hand" and "long hand" became synonymous with conflict. And it¡¯s all meant about amputation. 

 

 

[00:12:21] Melissa Fleming

"Short hand" and "long hand"? 

 

[00:12:22] Ozonnia Ojielo

So if they caught you on the street checkpoints, they asked you, 'Do you want short hand or long hand?' [If you] say ¡®short hand,¡¯ they cut off your hand here. If you say, ¡®long hand,¡¯ they cut it off at the wrist. 

 

[00:12:32] Melissa Fleming

So you're showing above the elbow and above the wrist. 

 

[00:12:37] Ozonnia Ojielo

Absolutely. And then the other dimension of the war was the high levels of sexual violence. You see very young boys, 12, 13-year-olds, with women twice enough to be their grandmothers. And they forcibly took them as sex slaves and wives because of war they had instruments of violence, the weapons. And these boys were, you know... They fed them with psychotropic substances and everything, so they were vicious in terms of how they conducted themselves. 

So, traveling the country, meeting these people, trying to pick up the pieces of their lives, and telling them about the Truth Commission and saying this is a mechanism for justice, to hear your story, to help the world appreciate your story, it gave me a sense of purpose. It gave a sense of fulfillment that yes, it might just be a commission. Yes, you might be talking to the people. Just for somebody to hear their story alone, for many, was the beginning of their healing. And so, I sat there working with the commissioners and I said, 'This is my purpose. It's working with people, trying to give them a sense of succour.' 

And that purpose was cemented by a particular incident I encountered. I had gone to some institute where girls who were sexually abused during the war were learning some trade - sewing. And I had gone to talk to them about coming to give statements to the Truth Commission. Melissa, I had no idea what happened to me that day, but I dressed up in my suit and tie, drove up in my four-by-four, and I went to the institute. And the owner of the institute called them. Between 70 to 80 young girls. So, they gathered and then I made my speech about the Truth Commission and all of that. 

And I thought I made an impressive speech, but for many minutes nobody said anything. Then at some point one girl raised her hand and she said, 'It's all nice for you to come here and tell us about coming to give statements to the Truth Commission. Did you ask if we had breakfast this morning? We'll come and give statements. By the time your work is done, some of us would have died from hunger or from poverty. And you are telling us about the statement which doesn¡¯t change our lives.' She said, 'Every time I leave here in the evening, I have nowhere to go to. So, I'm hoping that a man will pick me up. And if he's nice to me in the morning, he gives me some money. Sometimes they are not nice. They send me away without money.' 

She started crying. All the other girls started crying. I started crying as well. It was powerful. It was evocative. I was full of apologies, but it gave me a sense like there's a segment of our society that are unseen, have no voice. They are not heard. And sometimes those of us who work in official institutions get carried away by the sense of importance of the institutions in which we work. And that we must remember as we work for those institutions, that our core legitimacy, our core value proposition is how much are we giving voice, how much are we listening to all of those people. And there I was, very successful. I am making a lot of money. But I said to myself, this is much more valuable. This is value-adding to people's lives, trying to change people's lives or at least be there as a voice for them. So, I have many stories. From Sierra Leone there are... 

 

[00:16:23] Melissa Fleming

What did you take back after that meeting with those young women? 

 

[00:16:28] Ozonnia Ojielo

So I went back to the commissioners and I said, 'We have to change our strategy. We have to look for [inaudible] recommend interim reparations. Some of these [women] they need help.' And at that time, there was no qualified psychosocial counselor or therapist in Sierra Leone. They had all emigrated, those who had the means. So, we started looking for people who worked in NGOs, had some practice experience as psychosocial counselors. 

So, we took them along, made them available to people who can come to the Office of the Commission. We were the first Truth Commission in history to actually have a dedicated report on the experiences of women in the conflict. We also had a dedicated report on the experiences of children. That was a powerful way of trying to capture the experience that they have come through and so that the government of Sierra Leone, but also the international community can pay particular experience to what the women went through. 

Same for the children. Because many of the kids were minors. So, the big question then was do you take them through a criminal justice process like a truth commission when at the time they were committing these atrocities they were all underage? They were minors. So, we struggled with that. We worked closely with UNICEF [United Nations Children's Fund]. But we needed their stories told so that other children can learn from them, but we also needed them to go back to the communities. 

So how do you think those children back to the communities so that the community members can acknowledge them? Because they had all kinds of names, you know, for the children. And some who had gone back to their villages were not fully accepted, so they would hang out with other children who had gone through the war. And so, they were seen as social deviants. And we thought it was impacting on their future development. 

So, working with the communities we crafted a traditional cleansing mechanism in Sierra Leone that... Because the community members said, 'Unless they go through cleansing, we will never accept them fully back in the society.' So, we brought the faith community. We brought the traditional healers. They go pray with them in sacred groves, say their sins are expiated. 'Whatever you did to the community, you're now a full member of the community. Welcome back.' And they had big ceremonies to bring, reconcile with the children, bring them back to the communities. So, they can have a future back in the communities. So, you can't go through all this [inaudible]. So that's my UN life, because from there... 

 

[00:18:48] Melissa Fleming

Just one follow-up question though, because I keep thinking about those women and girls. And I know from other wars and when rape is used as a weapon of war there's so much stigma. And that they remain victims and outcasts even after the horrors have gone away. So how about the women? 

 

[00:19:09] Ozonnia Ojielo

Same for the women. Even as we speak, a lot of the work is still going on in Sierra Leone. So, the reintegration [into] the communities was central. And it's not... What we learned clearly was you can legislate anything in a peace agreement. We can see people are back home. The prejudices are there. The social mores are there. So, unless... And the only way we can address them was to hang this on the community leaders and the traditional elders, that this work continues, doesn't go away. 

And then, of course, creating opportunities for learning, either back to school or for learning some skill for the girls. So, there are many initiatives that were supported by the international community to give those girls some employable skills. I haven't been back to Sierra Leone for a long time, but I can only hope that many of the girls who pass through that experience will be able to rebuild their lives. 

 

 

[00:19:59] Melissa Fleming

What did you take from that in terms of lessons in how you could...? First of all, you were hooked, right? 

 

[00:20:07] Ozonnia Ojielo

I was. 

 

[00:20:07] Melissa Fleming

There was no going back to corporate law. 

 

[00:20:09] Ozonnia Ojielo

There was no going back to law practice. None. Not at all. For me... Because after that then the High Commissioner for Human Rights also asked me if I could go support the Liberian Truth Commission. So I went, spent two weeks in Liberia, and I said, 'You cannot survive two Truth Commissions in your lifetime. Even for you as a staff member, it's too traumatizing.' The trauma you go through, even as a staff member. Then imagine how it is for those that actually experience the war. 

 

[00:20:36] Melissa Fleming

You had already gone through the trauma of a civil war as a child. 

 

[00:20:39] Ozonnia Ojielo

Exactly. And that as well. But what it left in me was that abiding commitment that everything is not about money. It's not about legal practice. There are many ways we can add value in society. So, I basically was on the lookout for those opportunities to then add value. And then very soon after, I got the opportunity to serve the UN in Ghana as a peace and development advisor. So, and then here I am today. No more legal practice. 

 

[00:21:08] Melissa Fleming

How old were you around then? I'm trying to figure out the whole time. 

 

[00:21:12] Ozonnia Ojielo

Yeah, this was early thirties. 

 

[00:21:13] Melissa Fleming

Early thirties? 

 

[00:21:14] Ozonnia Ojielo

Yeah, it was in my early thirties. Very young in my career. You know. 

 

[00:21:17] Melissa Fleming

Had you met your wife by then? 

 

[00:21:19] Ozonnia Ojielo

I was, yeah. Actually, we had just gotten married and we had a son, then I flew off to Sierra Leone. Actually, our second son was born while I was in Sierra Leone on the short-term consultancy. I couldn't be there for his birth. Yeah. 

 

 

[00:21:33] Melissa Fleming

What did she think about that? 

 

[00:21:36] Ozonnia Ojielo

Serving humanity. So, she was very understanding. And then very quickly after they did a very short visit to Sierra Leone because it was not a family posting. So, like two, three days just to get a sense of where daddy was working. But then I kept visiting home frequently, of course. But it just follows you all your career that is usually the spouse that pays the price in terms of looking after the children. Because you have absentee fathers, absentee mothers depending on who's working. But I've been very fortunate that she's been very strong looking after the kids, clearly. So, I'm very proud of how they're all turning out, but also proud of the work she's done. 

 

[00:22:15] Melissa Fleming

You say all. You came from a family of seven.

 

[00:22:18] Ozonnia Ojielo

Seven. Now we have four. 

 

[00:22:20] Melissa Fleming

Four? 

 

[00:22:21] Ozonnia Ojielo

Yeah. Three boys and a girl, my princess. Yes. 

 

[00:22:25] Melissa Fleming

And they're all getting an education.

 

[00:22:27] Ozonnia Ojielo

And they're all getting an education. That is non-negotiable in the family. Whatever you want to become, go get a degree and then follow that pathway. You know where you come from, particularly from a developing country... And Nigeria, education is a big deal. Education is a driver for our own national development and then hopefully from there things can get better for the country. 

 

[00:22:46] Melissa Fleming

Well, I mean, now... Because then you moved to the UN Development Programme or UNDP in Kenya and in Ethiopia and then in New York. I mean, education is central to that, but you're often also there focused on peacebuilding. 

 

[00:23:02] Ozonnia Ojielo

That's right. 

 

[00:23:03] Melissa Fleming

So what is the relationship between peacebuilding and development? 

 

[00:23:10] Ozonnia Ojielo

I want to use an allegory to answer that question of health. So, governments anticipate that people will fall sick. So, you build an entire health architecture - training on nurses, doctors, technicians, all kinds of medical fields, but also all kinds of medical facilities. So, when that one person falls sick, the systems, the expertise, the mechanisms are there. And it is the same with peacebuilding. That in our societies, who come from different experiences. 

In many parts of the Global South, the developing countries, the country is still a work in progress. The nature of the politics is aggressive, confrontational, not just adversarial, and very often violence is a tool. It's a currency of negotiation in politics in many parts of the developing world. So that investment in peace is central to how you then help to consolidate the development in your country. That the same way we invest in health, we have to invest in peace. 

And what is interesting is that it's also intrinsic in our societies. In the, whatever... You know, in any part of Africa, you have elders, youth groups, youth associations. They play multiple roles, including roles of arbiters when there's a difference. Where I come from, Nigeria, among Igbo people, we are very republican. So, some parts of Igboland had kings. Most parts didn't. And for those most parts that didn't, the community was very well organized and structured. So, you had councils of elders, councils of women leaders. And when there were issues, everybody came to the square. We discussed. We found a resolution. Children had voices. They could offer their own opinion. 

So, when I advise governments and the others, I say to them, the default response by many governments when problems arise is to deploy the police or the military. But actually, that's a manifestation. When people on the street [are] protesting, you deploy police and military. That protest is a manifestation of something probably structural. When you go and interrogate why they are protesting, what you will find is that the issues are of a social, economic, political, or environmental nature. But we deploy the military. It's actually the wrong response. 

But how do you then go back to understanding what was the driver for the protest? It's through the leaders, the community elders, the faith community, the elder, however your social community is organized. You use those leaders of your social community to go find out why they are protesting and then to find a solution. 

 

[00:25:52] Melissa Fleming

You ended up a bit later going to Rwanda, and I'm going to come to that in a minute because I'm just wondering how you used some of those experiences. They had experienced the horrific genocide in 1994. But in between, you served in another part of the world entirely in Kyrgyzstan for UNDP as Resident Coordinator. How different was that? 

 

[00:26:19] Ozonnia Ojielo

Not very different. It's also a developing country. And they were very proud to have somebody from the Global South as a Resident Coordinator. 

 

[00:26:27] Melissa Fleming

Pretty cold there too. 

 

[00:26:28] Ozonnia Ojielo

Pretty cold as well. So, the day I arrived, the winter jacket I had bought from New York wasn't sufficient for the cold when I arrived. 

 

[00:26:36] Melissa Fleming

But New York is freezing. 

 

[00:26:37] Ozonnia Ojielo

New York was freezing. So, imagine what it was there. So, the weather was one big challenge. And at some point, in January 2018, the heating system collapsed. And so, I went to a cafe close to my apartment called Obama Cafe and bought several bottles of vodka. And I was lying down in bed and swigging at my vodka, but the cold was excessive. 

And I didn't remember it was my birthday. But two Kyrgyz friends, one of them had worked for the UN and retired, they remembered. And they drove to my appointment that evening and they called me up, they said, 'Where are you?' I'm like, 'Where am I supposed to be? I'm in bed. It's cold. There's no power.' They said, 'Come downstairs.' I'm like, 'You must be joking.' They said, 'We're downstairs. We're waiting for you.' I went downstairs. They hugged me and said happy birthday. They drove me to a Korean restaurant. And so, they gave us this table with a grill. We were cooking and grilling and eating till the next morning. 

 

[00:27:32] Melissa Fleming

So it was a gas grill. So, it worked. 

 

[00:27:33] Ozonnia Ojielo

It was a gas grill. Yes, so it worked. 

 

[00:27:35] Melissa Fleming

You were in your down coats but...

 

[00:27:38] Ozonnia Ojielo

Absolutely. So, we had a fantastic time. So, I still remember that week because then the next day all the electric heaters, you know, got exhausted in the supermarkets. Everybody was looking for something to warm up. But otherwise as a developing country, mountainous, so very similar to Rwanda and many other countries. Landlocked. You know, actually they are double landlocked. So, all the same development challenges as every other country. So, our role then is to support them in helping defining their pathway. 

 

[00:28:08] Melissa Fleming

What was the pathway in Kyrgyzstan? 

 

[00:28:11] Ozonnia Ojielo

Kyrgyz pathway, first of all, it was through natural resource development, significant gold mining. But because it is double landlocked, transport logistics was a big issue. So, trying to create corridors with Kyrgyzstan, with Uzbekistan, with Tajikistan, with Russia also was important. 

Farming was another important issue, particularly in the border area between Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, and Tajikistan. You know, the Fergana Valley has been part of the Silk Road for more than a thousand years but also has been a major point of tension and conflict. And so, we tried to do a study of how the Fergana Valley could be a uniting factor, all the three countries coming together. Using it for investment in joint initiatives, which was extremely well received. 

But I had a fantastic time in Kyrgyzstan, really fantastic time. I enjoyed my time there. Wonderful people, extremely welcoming. So, when I was leaving, they gave me the highest national honour in the country. And the prime minister said to me, 'You're now our ambassador wherever you go. So, you go look after our interests.' So, I got the Dank, so I wear it like a badge of honour that the country could show such appreciation when I was leaving Kyrgyzstan. 

 

[00:29:29] Melissa Fleming

That's wonderful. Then you went to Rwanda for almost four years as Resident Coordinator. And of course, Rwanda had experienced the terrible genocide in 1994. This was about over 20 years later, right? How did you find that legacy continuing to shape the country? 

 

 

[00:29:55] Ozonnia Ojielo

The thing with genocide is that it defines a country force for generations because it's there in the psyche. And each time there's some potential threat of a [inaudible] of violence in the Great Lakes, many of my Rwandese friends will panic and say maybe something will happen again. So, it hasn't gone away. 

The perception of the role of the UN hasn't gone away either. So, when I met the president, he reminded me of that role, but he said to me, 'We're not holding it against you. I want you to work with my ministers and give us every support you can.' And I promised him we would do our very best. 

So, constructing peace within Rwanda, but also in the neighbourhood was a big issue. But clearly for Rwanda, the journey of reconciliation, it's intergenerational, people to recognize that the future can always be better. And so, one credit I will give to the government of Rwanda is trying to respond to that aspiration that the biggest gift, the biggest offering, the biggest development outcome a government can give its people is hope. It sounds intangible, but it's not. You can build infrastructure, the roads. People see that. But essentially, it's hope. Hope that the future will be better. Hope that my material conditions will change. Hope that you are thinking about me as a citizen and you want my life to be better. 

So, anyone who's been to Rwanda, even 10 years ago, 15 years ago and been to Rwanda today will not recognize the place. But in terms of the infrastructure, the services, the quality of services, the digitization of state services, everything is available in digital. Every government... Literally more than 800 government services, you don't need to leave the comfort of your home. You can get it online. The sense of security. Police presence everywhere. So, citizens can go about feeling that they are secure in their country. 

So, it's... And given where they've come from and trying to unite the people around this sense of hope has been very powerful. That hope makes everybody feel that hopefully one day the bigger issues in the Great Lakes region will be resolved so that people can live in peace with each other. 

 

[00:32:15] Melissa Fleming

You're in the neighbourhood of a horrific war in Sudan. Do you see any hope that...? I mean, again, a conflict, a horrible war that has not been prevented. It's raging right now. We're witnessing terrible atrocities, war crimes. Is there any hope there that you can see? 

 

[00:32:42] Ozonnia Ojielo

If you work in the UN, our main currency is hope. That's why you and I and the rest of colleagues, the thousands of colleagues who work in UN, that's why we take on these jobs. It's hope that the future will be different. It's hope that all conflicts will ultimately [be] resolved. 

The tragedy of Sudan and many parts of the world today where you have conflict going on is that the international community is not holding the enablers to account. That's the tragedy. They've been enabled. Countries are supplying them with weapons, with drones, and all that kind of, you know. And those enablers then come and position themselves as members of the international community looking for peace. If we start holding the enablers to account, maybe things might change. So, we stay hopeful, even as we speak there's no evidence that is anchoring our hope. But if you work in the UN, your main resume is about hope. That's what drives all of us. 

 

[00:33:42] Melissa Fleming

These days, you're in Ethiopia. What are the biggest challenges facing the country? I mean, I know that you have also... We were just talking about Sudan. You have more than a million refugees from South Sudan, Sudan, Somalia, and Eritrea. I know this is just one of the challenges that Ethiopia is facing. 

 

[00:34:04] Ozonnia Ojielo

True. 

 

 

[00:34:05] Melissa Fleming

What are you doing to help Ethiopia cope? 

 

[00:34:12] Ozonnia Ojielo

Ethiopia has many challenges as refugees is only one. And then unfortunately the armed conflict that both the one in the north and the one that's taking place in different parts of the country with non-state armed groups, is creating displacement. So, there are lots of Ethiopians who are also displaced. And then Ethiopia sits in a region of significant climatic changes - the Horn of Africa. So, drought is a major issue. And then forced displacement also of people because of the drought conditions. 

But what the government has done certainly is commendable. Recently, they launched a strategy called Makatet, which is about refugee inclusion. To include refugees in host communities so refugees can have access to land, cultivate, engage in economic activities, get identity documents, go to school. So, I think that's a milestone. Ethiopia has now launched a national disaster fund. And so now they are raising money. 

The government of Ethiopia wants to be defined by its ambitions rather than by its challenges. So that aspiration is wonderful. That is a government that is forward-looking, wants to be defined by their ambitions. So, they want to take leadership in addressing the humanitarian situation in Ethiopia. So, we're working closely with them. Since I arrived, we've tried to re-conceptualize the UN value proposition for Ethiopia. Collectively as a UN system, we're lifting our head high. I will look at the number of shifts that our biggest offer as a UN is ideation. 

 

[00:35:57] Melissa Fleming

What do you mean by that? 

 

[00:35:58] Ozonnia Ojielo

Ideas. Ideas to change the world. Ideas to address persistent and protracted development problems. That's our biggest offer as the UN. It was never about the money. So, we come with the ideas. We go to some community. We prove it can happen. But then there must be scale. So, I'm very excited with the colleagues in the Country Team. We're one of the biggest Country Teams in the world. Many of them have dual mandates. They also are regional representation offices to the Africa Union and the Economic Commission for Africa. But the rest are in the County Team. And so together with my colleagues in Country Team, we have big ambitions. And we are excited at the possibilities about what we can do for Ethiopia. So, this is my fourth month at post, but I think defining the pathway forward early on has allowed us to concentrate our energies and capacities in where we want to go. 

 

[00:36:49] Melissa Fleming

That sounds very exciting. 

 

[00:36:51] Ozonnia Ojielo

Thank you. 

 

[00:36:52] Melissa Fleming

Is there anything that's keeping you awake at night, though? 

 

[00:36:55] Ozonnia Ojielo

So what's keeping me awake essentially is this re-conceptualization of our development offer. Because the statistics should worry everyone. The number of young people, big ideas, not finding opportunities. And if you create a sense of frustration, as you see happening in many countries in the continent, the manifestations are multiple. Some are voting with their feet through the Sahara Desert to cross into Europe. And the numbers are frightening, the numbers of those who have died. Some are voting with their feet and joining different kinds of non-state groups. 

And a lot of the narrative you hear is about a sense of exclusion or lack of opportunity. So, you look at the statistics. The number of protests you see in the average country today is worrisome. Many of the protests are turning violent. So, what it says to me is that many young people are losing hope. And I have argued that the biggest currency we offer our young people is hope. So, I'm hoping for a sense of agency among our leadership in recognizing the problem. 

And some... You see it in some countries. You don't see it in the others. And conflict doesn't have geographic boundaries. It crosses borders. Young people, arms, are crossing borders. So, you might be doing well in one country if that sense of urgency doesn't exist in the other, it could be a spillover country effect. So, I look at all of those and I hope that countries, particularly in Africa, will generate a stronger sense of urgency about this development need and what needs to be done. 

And second, of course, is a higher degree of aspiration for all of us that work in the UN system. So, I have a lot of hope in what UN80 can do for us. It's keeping me awake because change is often difficult. And when change is uncertain, it can necessarily generate resistance. And I'm hoping that colleagues will appreciate that as painful as some of it might be, this is the real UN now we're talking about. This is what the UN was meant to be. The UN was meant to be lean, but with the best capacities and the best skills and ready to jump in when a government says, 'What do you think?' Jump in with our ideas to make change happen. 

 

 

[00:39:24] Melissa Fleming

Do you ever do anything to relax? 

 

[00:39:27] Ozonnia Ojielo

I tried to play some golf, but my golf is terrible, because my friend said that I import all my problems to the golf course. 

 

[00:39:34] Melissa Fleming

So you whack the ball? 

 

[00:39:35] Ozonnia Ojielo

I whack the ball. I'm whacking the ball with too much power just to get the stress out, you know. 

 

[00:39:40] Melissa Fleming

But does it work? It gets the stress out? 

 

[00:39:42] Ozonnia Ojielo

Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. But I guess there's nobody in the UN system that doesn't have high blood pressure. I think it's a currency of our job that every UN colleague I know...

 

[00:39:54] Melissa Fleming

Remember what you said about peace infrastructure, and health infrastructure. We need you healthy because you have so much more to do and so much more to contribute. And what you have already given is just remarkable. Thank you so much, Ozonnia. It was fascinating to listen to your life story. 

 

[00:40:09] Ozonnia Ojielo

A real pleasure. Thank you very much. 

 

[00:40:12] Melissa Fleming

Thank you for listening to Awake at Night. We'll be back soon with more incredible and inspiring stories from people working against huge challenges to make this world a better and safer place. 

To find out more about the series and the extraordinary people featured, do visit un.org/awake-at-night. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and please take the time to review us. It helps more people to find the show. 

Thanks to my editor Bethany Bell and to my colleagues at the UN: Katerina Kitidi, Roberta Politi, Geneva Damayanti, Abby Vardeleon, Alison Corbet, Laura Rodriguez de Castro, Eric Balgley, Jason Candler, Benji Candelario, Anzhelika Devis, Tulin Battikhi, Bissera Kostova, Brianna Rowe, Joon Park, and Taeyoung Lee. The original music for this podcast was written and performed by Nadine Shah and produced by Ben Hillier.